Everyday grocery store items like bananas, chocolate, coffee. These are global commodities. They pass through a lot of people’s hands on their way from the fields to your grocery cart. This is the stories behind our food podcast, the podcast where expert guests share insight or knowledge about every step along the process. I’m Danielle Robidoux — and I’m Kate Chess — and we’re your hosts.:

Hi folks. Today we’re here with Rob Everts, president of Equal Exchange.:

Good to be here.:

Thank you so much for joining us today, Rob. let’s get right into it. Let’s start with your craziest more story as an organizer.:

Yeah, there’s a lot of potential war stories to share. Of course. some are are tragic some are exhilarating, But let me go back to the beginning of my career, one that was actually humorous. So I had dropped out of college to join the United Farm Workers Union. I’m from California, but I got sent to Boston in the heyday of these consumer boycotts — we were boycotting grapes and Lettuce. And at that time, I had organized a group in a western suburb of Boston to hold signs over the Massachusetts Turnpike that said boycott grapes and Lettuce. And we had a lot of people out there. And pretty soon a state trooper pulled up and, told us to get off the bridge. And, I asked him why and bottom line was, he said, because I said, so. So then I said, well, you know, when I ask you a straightforward question, I can’t get a straightforward answer. I just have no respect for the state police. Boom, click, click back of the seat. So I’m in the back of the, of the, cruiser taken to jail. an activist bailed me out and the UFW then launched a, a kind of a tongue in cheek campaign: Free the Newton One. This was in Newton, Massachusetts, Free the Newton One. And, I asked the — I was 19, and so I’d been arrested now and so I asked the director of the office, so what do I do and what you, you got to go hustle a lawyer. So I went and where could I go? Well, you be resourceful. You’re an organizer. So, I uncovered a lawyer at Harvard law school who would work, pro bono. She took my case Jean Kettleson and bless her heart.:

Fast forward to the hearing. We’re in there. There’s a state trooper, there’s me, there’s the judge, there’s my lawyer and there’s the assistant DA for Middlesex County who is prosecuting me. And it’s John Kerry, John Kerry, early in his career, not too many years after he has been very public about his organizing with the Vietnam veterans against the war VVAW. So he does not have his heart in this case, but he’s representing the trooper. And so, so he’s going, yeah, this, that the other thing. And then you could just see that all these characters knew each other. and so the judge was toying with John Kerry and I can just almost hear him all these years later is saying, well, surely you of all people, Mr Kerry, you must appreciate the nature of the activity that Mr Everts engaged in nonviolent, if you will. You know, things like that. In any way. My lawyer proceeded to tie the poor trooper into knots. and the whole thing was thrown out. But it was a, it was a good baptism to early organizing. Having to be resourceful on my own to extract myself out of that difficulty.:

Sounds, sounds like a rite of passage. That’s a, that’s a really cool story. I, I’m interested Rob, so obviously I’m an organizer for Equal Exchange. what organizing looks like today is obviously really different from, you know, back on the mass pike and, you know, holding up a sign. So I’m curious as to, if you can kind of speak to your experience organizing then and organizing now in some of the major differences that you can see with such largely different contexts, but you know, some, some of the similar same problems.:

Yeah, I think in many ways it hasn’t changed all that much. it’s about organizing is still about building relationships. It’s still about a convincing people that if they are organized, they can build power, that they can have power. In some instances like union organizing, it’s still about combating fear. So in many ways a lot of what organizing hasn’t changed. One thing that has changed, are the tools available. So when you think about technology, I think most people would agree that you know clicks and likes don’t organize people. So that’s, that’s not, that’s not doing it. but when I think about what’s been achieved, I think the first group that I recall doing this was move on.org when they would organize digitally, you know, online these meetups that would get people in the same neighborhoods and zip codes and to meet physically in someone’s living room to then talk with an agenda and, about, you know, a common problem in an organize a strategy together that the blend of some of the technology available with still not losing sight of the importance of being in person, is a real asset in this day and age.:

Yeah. That’s interesting. Kind of thinking the parallels and really the tools being what are different and thinking about how the problem is, how do I get people to care? How do I get people rallied over a specific issue. What, what do you think makes a good organizer in general, what do you think the best traits to a good organizer are? And you know, you’ve done organizing work then and even today, right? Some of our work is organizing. why are you drawn to this kind of work? Why is it exciting for you?:

I think first in some of the traits of a good organizer, it’s hard for me to put anything above persistence. It can be so slow and the victories can be so few and far between that you have to have a pilot light that is really flaming. and you need to be persistent. And beyond that, I think you need humility. You do need a strong sense of self, self respect. You need to have a love for people, not just tolerate them but like really want to engage. and I think you need to be able to take the long view. So I think all of those are really, critical. I first, you know, got involved in high school with the United Farm Workers when they were picketing a store in my hometown. And I believe that the organizers there, Nancy Elliott, she, she saw me as a potential live wire. There was something, I was pretty shy, but she’s, she, she saw something and so she literally took me under her wing and you know, let me show you how we do it and we walk up to cars and tell them why we’re asking people not to even shop at that store and to please turn around and go away. So it seemed a high bar as opposed to just don’t buy this product. But we did it. And, I got the bug. And so I think what motivates me in some way is, believing that it’s worthwhile and yet that it’s has to be effective. Like when you think about the scale of evil in the world and corporate corruption, I mean, it can be overwhelming. It can be and very disempowering. So it’s not just enough to be outraged at wrongs in the world. You have to believe that there is a path and that you personally can find a role to be effective in that work to effect change.:

I agree with that. You do need that sense of hope and I do think it’s a lot easier as an individual to kind of see what’s already been done and have this highly critical eye, oh why is it that way? It should be this way. It should be that way. But I think as an organizer you do really want to think about that solution based thinking and having hope and seeing that hey, this is a path forward. So I really liked that you said that here and I’m curious, I actually was a really shy person as well. And do you do just seem to be really articulate, really charismatic, which I do think that human connection and the way we can communicate our ideas to people is important as well. What brought you to that first activity and where you really scared? Did someone push you to go to that kind of first event?:

Yeah, it actually was a sense of, I saw my brother do it — like it was this, it was a liquor store. It was Gallo wine that we were picketing. And I would walk past it on the other side of the street every day thinking I should be able to, I should be there. I should be able to be in that. And you know, I was too shy and not confident enough that I would even know what to say. And one rainy day, my older brother went down to join the picket line for the first time and I just kind of believed, well if he can do it, I can do it as sibling rivalry challenge. And so, and then like, look who stuck with it. Right? So he lasted a few months and I’m doing this 35 years later, you know.:

That’s awesome.:

That speaks to the power of relationships. Like you were saying, at the foundation of organizing is building relationships with the folks you’re trying to organize. But also with people in the community of activists. Have you had mentors who are notable?:

Yeah. Let me say just one more thing about that, that as much as we think people are attracted to a cause, like it’s all about the cause. People are attracted to you, the organizer. I mean, people win people over. And when I talk about, you know, humility, and not, and not being too self righteous of which I was at that age, I really like anyone who wasn’t boycotting Gallo wine was a complete disaster. Right? Even if they’ve never even heard of the boycott, if they weren’t doing it, they were, I mean, I was really pretty insufferable probably in that age, but so, so you got to find the balance of not being too self righteous, but driven and motivated and engaging and, and with a winning personality because people are attracted to, to people. For a mentor after that first organizer, Nancy Elliott, I think the one who I look up to the most would be Fred Ross, man by the name of Fred Ross. and it’s probably not insignificant that there’s probably not a single person listening to this podcast who’s ever heard of him. and that’s one of the reasons I look up to him because Fred was the person who discovered — I’ll put in quotes — Cesar Chavez, when Fred was looking to organize Mexican Americans in California, he found Chavez in a, in a barrio in, in San Jose. and they worked together for many years before even starting to build the United Farm Workers Union. So Fred worked for probably 60, 65 years as an organizer. And I know him from initially having the story, you know, having trained Chavez, how to organiz, together. Building with Dolores Huerta, building up the United Farm Workers.:

And then I come along as a college dropout at 19. Fred’s there, Fred is leading trainings. He’s accompanying people like me to house meetings. We’re critiquing them at 10 o’clock at night afterwards, while it’s really fresh. 20 years after that he’s working with CISPES, you know, the Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador doing organizing drives. He’s working with the people who ran the boycott against Nestle’s for the infant formula. and so accompanying people into his eighties accompany people to house meetings and doing debriefs immediately after and never stop training. And so someone like that who had done so much and changed so many lives and someone that no one’s ever heard of it, it just strikes me as a power. For me, he’s always been a mentor.:

I’m glad to get his name out there:

Because it’s back to the humility piece. Maybe that’s why no one’s ever heard of him. Right. Yeah. And to kind of step back, I really did like what you had said about human connection and that kind of being the central point to being a successful organizer. That it is about connecting human to human. And that’s what I really like about Equal Exchange is that we are trying to elevate the stories of people who are a part of making our food, whatever that looks like. And as an organizer, I definitely find it more, I want to know about the people that I’m organizing. I want to know about their lives and their, and their families and why they care about this on a human level. And I think that genuineness of really getting there is, and people feel that, and I think you’re right. It, they’re, they’re gravitated to the person and they can feel that you actually care about then as a human being. So I liked that. I liked that you said that, right?:

Yeah, it really, it really matters.:

So as for Equal Exchange, you know, we’re an alternative trade organization. We sell coffee, we sell chocolate, we sell tea, we are this for profit business, right? What makes us different and why do you think that organizing is something that’s central to what Equal Exchange should be doing? And as we think about a path forward, what does an alternative trade organization look like, you know, in the next 30 years. Why do you see organizing as a central piece of that?:

I think Equal Exchange is a more unique than we wish. We wish there were many more alternative trade organizations, ATOs out there in the world. like us whose sole mission, right is to change the terms of trade to inject equity and more justice into the, into an international trade in our, in our sector. but I think for us in this era, especially, you could, you could make the case that we should have been organizing in this way with consumers from, from day one, we’ve always put a high premium on education, trying to demystify where people’s food comes from, encouraging people to ask us questions and challenges. But we never have invested in this way. And for us now, it actually feels like a, like a strategy of, survival because, because of market forces and consolidation, corporate change where we all, you know, attempt to sell our food in addition to alternative distribution channels and food coops and things. But they have more control than ever before and their leverage to extract lower prices out of suppliers — And in this case, you know, we are a supplier to stores — it forces us to build an alternative, right? A nonlinear response to that. And I think we need to be, looking at people who consume our products in a way that’s broader than just consumption, not just people who consume. Right? And that’s why we’ve invoked this, this phrase, citizen consumers, because we, we want to engage with actually hundreds of thousands of people around the country who, who, who buy our stuff, in the totality of their being, right? Their whole political beings as citizen consumers, not just, you know, how can I help buy her stuff? How can I help join us? , and I think that’s unique among businesses here where we’re actually inviting citizen consumers people into our, market based organisation, this commercial enterprise to play an extremely important role, ultimately possibly a governance role with a, with a form of membership in this cooperative, that they are influencing decisions that we make, perhaps some day on the board of directors. So that’s the vision, right? And I think we need that in order to be around, you know, for the next 33 years.:

I think that’s really powerful. And what is different about that is that you’re actually asking folks to — you’re bringing down the walls, you’re asking for shared responsibility and you’re asking folks to walk this path with you and not to kind of, you know, be seeing what Equal Exchange does from afar and maybe appreciating it until actually there isn’t enough support. And maybe in 20 years if you didn’t go down this path, that actually doesn’t exist because you know, you always see that a co op is going out of business and you know, in the final hour you have everyone running to the store, you know, trying to, you know, save the Co op. But where were you for the past three years when they were struggling showing up and saying, Hey, I care about this. I want to engage in this alternative model. And so I think that getting folks to walk that path with us in a totally different way that no — from what I know anyhow, that no for profit businesses doing to me is actually really powerful.:

And I think in this moment when, democracy around the world, you know, in this country and in many countries around the world is under extreme duress. We’re hedging that, democracy matters to a meaningful number of number of people. And we want to give meaning to democracy, within our world, within our, not just within our worker co op, which is extremely important. but extend it to the whole consumer base that we have an end and try to create a model that really is a democratic, brand in the marketplace.:

And, and democracy doesn’t work if you don’t have active participation. I mean, since working here, I think I actually might understand democracy more than being a citizen of my own country. You know, you show up on election day and where is your involvement for the rest of the year. And so I don’t want to someone who’s just going to show up on election day, I want someone who has this shared responsibility and accountability to this is our planet, right? This is our food system. This is the food that we’re eating. This is the food we’re feeding to our, to our kids, and how do I actually care about that on a different level and realize that I as an individual have power. Right. And I think that’s the power of an organizer is that’s what we’re here to tell you, that we are actually bringing you along this path and getting you to care.:

One thing I feel like I’m seeing a lot is defeatism. You’ve alluded to the magnitude of the problems that folks are facing and you’ve also talked about how essential it is that organizers have a path forward or have a vision of a hopeful future. But I think that might be one of the generational differences, as young people look back on what seems to be this golden age of protest and organizing in the sixties and seventies that we weren’t alive for. It seems like the problems today are bigger and therefore like, let’s not bother or, or something like that. Do you, do you this defeatism and do you have any advice for younger folks that are trying to get involved?:

I would be lying if I didn’t say I didn’t have my own moments like that. Right? Like, I’m thinking of the present moment democracy under duress in this country, right? Our president is, is trampling on democracy. And in my weakest moments, I think he might win the day, right? Can the public, can we, can we, the people rescue our democracy? I think it’s there. I think it’s … I think to deny it is not helpful. And so to acknowledge it, but then to try to, you know, turn the corner and look at it concrete ways that people can make change. There are so many examples, especially young people these days. when I look at, and it’s not just young people, but Black Lives Matter. When I look at the Parkland students, a lot of organizing around immigration. A lot is young people. A lot is effective, right? There’s challenges, but a lot of this is effective and, and young people, in a way they’re fearless. So I don’t deny that there’s this, there’s this backdrop or bigger context of, of defeatism and, and, and the, the warming planet and you know, it’s getting worse and things like, you know, there’s a lot, there’s a lot there, but there’s also a lot of examples of people doing really good work and being successful at what they’re doing. And so, I would try to steer people in that direction because it’s, it’s, it’s the path that we all need to take.:

Right. And I guess the overall point would be what does organizing among other organizations who are doing similar work, what does solidarity look like, there, on an organizational level and how can we think about that in the same way and what can we learn from what we do on an individual organizing level, but also, like you said, Rob, there is hope. There is a path, there are folks that are in other organizations doing really cool things and how can Equal Exchange, you know, tap in and connect to some of those and you know, really just pave a path forward that that is positive despite, you know, what Kate had alluded to and that all the things that are going wrong in this world and how can we band together as organizations to, you know, move forward.:

Equal exchange is a worker cooperative. You know, we, we buy from farmer cooperatives, we sell to consumer cooperatives. There are other worker cooperatives around. It’s ironic how difficult it is to cooperate despite the sixth coop principal: cooperation among cooperatives. It can be really hard. And I pull back to other organizing and organizing more often than not is issue oriented. It’s driven by issues. And whereas I really believe, that the overstated phrase, there’s more that unites us than divides us. I do believe that. And so the challenge is to be able to articulate that and to overcome suspicion and to relax assumptions and permit others to influence you. And more than anything to be willing to compromise, not your values, but maybe your priorities. Because there is, if we, if we let our, if we let that sink in, if we let ourselves believe that there truly is more that unites us, let’s name it, let’s name those things that unite us and let’s name the common, you know, I’ll say enemy for lack of a better word. and then let’s see where we can work together because it, it, it can be really difficult. But when it, when it does work, it’s a, it’s a beautiful thing.:

I’m actually interested to Rob just to think about, you know, clearing out the shelves of that. What are some of the tactics that you used as an organizer? You know, how, what are interesting ways to kind of get people to care? I know there’s, you know, different tactics that folks are using to try to get attention from people. Is there anything from your experience that you have seen that too bad an, you know, really successful?:

One of the most successful things at the pure tactical level was knowing that the media loves to cover itself. Now. Now I’ll take it to around 1980, 1990, the organization, Neighbor to Neighbor, which was, leading an effort, among many others to, end the US involvement in the war in El Salvador. And our focus had been on Congress. but here it’s still the cold war. And many Democrats were just as bad as Republicans in terms of supporting US aid to the butchers in El Salvador, the people who had assassinated Archbishop Romero and the six Jesuit priests later on, and the four American church women and 80,000 more peasants and union people and teachers whose names will never know. we, we wanted, we launched a boycott of their leading export, which was coffee. So it was, so, it was the, the governing party was the ARENA party, the party of the coffee growing elite, President Alfredo Christiani was a big plantation coffee plantation owner, and we said, Congress, the congressional strategy isn’t working. Let’s try something else. And many of us had been in the United Farm Workers Union. And so we looked around the room one day and realized we had a hundred years of collective consumer boycott experience in the room and said, there’s nothing to lose. Let’s go after him. And so we launched a boycott of Salvadoran coffee. We targeted Folgers as the leading user of Salvadoran beans in there blend. And the tactic that we used was we used many and, and I almost don’t have time to talk about them all here, but the role of the longshoreman on the West Coast was beautiful.:

But the one I want to say it was right here in Boston, when we made for $5,000 we made a TV commercial or a 30-second TV ad narrated by the actor Ed Asner that ended up with a Folgers’ coffee mug with blood seeping out of it. You know. And Ed Asner’s saying, boycott Folgers’ coffee: what it brews is misery and death. And we tried to shop this to local stations to run it and it was essentially banned in Boston, right? One station after another. Refused to run this ad. And finally, the local, the ABC affiliate, I believe it was at the time, channel seven here, actually agreed, called our bluff. Yeah. We’ll run that spot. And so we, I quickly had to go and hustle like 10,000 bucks to buy a couple of, you know, slots at non prime time, like 10 in the morning during Family Feud or something like that, just to follow through.:

That’s just when I feel like a cup of blood.:

And so we ran it. And then within minutes, practically, Procter & Gamble that owned Folgers revoked $1 million in ad money from channel seven because he had the audacity to run the Neighbor to Neighbor low budget TV spot. So we were able to convert that into a national story. Like this one was too hot — look at who got punished for, you know, running this ad, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so we, because the media likes to cover itself, we’re able to get this on the front page of the New York Times, on CNN. It was like massive coverage of this, of this punishment by a multinational over a local station. that had dared run, this low budget, you know, ad for an advocacy organization. So like that’s just one of the tactics, but I also know that , controversy works, when you think about what to advocates have in their, in their toolkit, in a way it’s too bad, but controversy does work. When there ware other things on the Folgers boycott that we did right, that were, that were controversial and it got press coverage, right. And you don’t get press coverage for the sake of getting press coverage. You get press coverage to make the issue, a real life present day right here in this community or in this congressional district. It’s an issue. It’s not something 4,000 miles away that you don’t have to do with no. You have to deal with it.:

Yeah. Yeah. What about humor?:

Humor is a good, good asset. We, when I was with the United Farm Workers, there was a, actually a mushroom farm in California owned by Ralston Purina. And so all the different offices were asked, to start up a boycott of Purina thinking we could do this one pretty quickly. So we went out and rented a Snoopy costume and in front of the regional — you know, the local office of them. Right. We had, you know, Snoopy says — and who knows if we’re within our rights or we’re just breaking or all sorts of, laws, but we had a massive Snoopy snout, you know, on someone a Snoopy uniform — Snoopy Says Boycott Purina Dog Chow. That got covered by TV. It’s funny. You know, it got coverage and it was one of those things,:

It attracts people to your campaign, I think. You talked about making connections with people and yeah, no one wants to be part of a losing battle and no one wants to do something that’s just all like a horrible chore all the time. Like you want to be around people that are having fun.:

Exactly. Because if you’re in this for the long haul, you need to be the, we’re all han, you know, we’re not 100% serious all the time. Yeah. The issues that we’re talking about in grappling with are serious, often deadly serious. But, that’s not the kind of energy that attracts others to the cause and keeps them there for the long haul. And so humor I think is really vital as one of the things along the way that does not diminish the importance of any cause, whatsoever.:

Rob, thank you so much for all of your information. I definitely think that I could sit here and talk to you about organizing for days, but thinking about Equal Exchanges organizing now and I want to just talk to the listeners about how they can get involved and thinking about Equal Exchange, really being a part of that fair trade movement and the kind of vote with your dollar idea. How can we talk about what we’re doing now, how that’s different and that we’re building upon that story to kind of expand beyond conscious consumerism and how folks can get involved beyond just, hey, I’m buying Equal Exchange coffee. What, what else can can folks do and how can they get involved?:

Yeah. Good. I mean we obviously do ask people to vote with your dollar. We ask them to buy our stuff. But we also are very aware that that is just one layer, right? That that is vote with your fork, vote with your dollar. those are not the end. Those are big. Those are the points of entry. political engagement and involvement is really crucial here. So for us at Equal Exchange, we are, eagerly inviting, people who, who, who support what we do to engage with us and join us. In fact, this summer in June here in Massachusetts, we’re holding our third year of what we’re calling the summit of activists. and, and, eventually we believe members of Equal Exchange to come and engage with us. you know, if you go to our website, you will be steered quickly to, to this activity to how to join. but we, we need you, we need people engage in, in a deeper way than ever before. Doesn’t mean commit your life to Equal Exchange. It means we have a whole multiple, you know, multipart menu of ways you can get involved in help us from buying to talking to others, to talking to your local store, your, your, your church, any number of ways. So we need you and we’d like you, we’d love it for those who inspired sufficiently inspired after listening to this to go to the website and get in touch with us.:

We’ll put links in the show notes as well so you can find them there.:

I also think what’s powerful about the Equal Exchange summit, and I am one of the organizers of that event, is that you’re actually asking people to show up physically. It’s really a virtual worlds and folks are engaging in that way every day, every minute. And we actually want to see your face. We want to, for you to show up physically, we want to get to know you on a human level. And so that’s what’s really powerful to me is it’s really a gathering of all the folks in Equal Exchange’s, community, our worker-owners, our customers that we want to call citizen consumers. Right? You’re not just as much as your dollar is worth, you’re more and our producer partners. So really just getting folks around. all parts of our supply chain around one table. So just to talk a bit about the details. It’s going to be June 20th to June 22nd in Norton, Massachusetts at Wheaton College. So we would love you folks to come and we will have in the show notes, but in case you’re not going to look at the show notes, it’s Equal Exchange dot coop slash summit so we hope to see you there.:

Thanks again for joining us, Rob.:

Thank you.:

Thanks for listening to the Stories Behind Our Food, a podcast by Equal Exchange, Inc a workaround cooperative. Love this episode? Please subscribe rate and leave a review. Be sure to visit www.exchange.coop to join the conversation, purchase products and learn more about small scale farmers in the global supply chain. This episode was produced by Equal Exchange with hosts, Kate Chess and Danielle Robidoux. Sound engineering provided by Gary Goodman. Join us next time for another edition of the Stories Behind Our Food.